'If you've ever spoken to someone who gets it wrong, it's disconcerting. They might talk about their friends as if you know who they are. They’ll say, “Sarah told me…” and you're like, Who the hell is Sarah? ' Ah, I see you've met my wife, who does this constantly; it drives me batty and I find myself filling in the relationship to whomever she is talking to.
I just wanted to pop in to say that, although I am not a writer, I greatly enjoy your essays here and find that they help me, as a reader, understand what I do or don't like about a story.
Just what I needed. I'm struggling with a novel put in a drawer long enough for a huge world change (not the orange devil but a supreme court reversal) and I think it means I need to think about the story's ear differently. Thank you!
Where I find myself getting stuck is on what I see as a fine line between breaking the fourth wall and using rhetorical language. For example, in my story, the narrator is trapped in his own mind (physically unconscious) and thinking back over his life. He IS telling a story, but not to anyone in particular; I suppose he's telling it to himself, to pinpoint moments where he might have gone wrong, leading to his present predicament. In a few places, he'll say something like, "You'd think I would have found this alarming." He's not addressing a particular person, but a couple people in my workshop highlighted this as a breaking of the fourth wall. But is it really?
If my friend Betty says something to me like, "Shouldn't this farmers market have locally grown vegetables?" and I respond, "You would think," I'm not really saying, "You, Betty, would think that;" I'm saying, "Logically, anyone would think this."
Of course, the narcissistic tendency to presumptive references is also a perfect trait to endow a character with. "Karen always did that -- continuing a conversation we hadn't actually had. She was the kind of person who thought if it happened to her, or if she had a certain thought, you must somehow know about it. She would insist you knew, for example, who 'Sarah' was, even if she'd made one offhand reference to this woman months ago. You were supposed to memorize her life, although most of yours had to be presented to her anew every conversation, as if she was afflicted with friendship amnesia."
That's me, responding to a non-existent prompt, because I miss them and wish you'd bring them back.
Yes yes yes. Thank you. So clear. I coach actors and opera singers; it's utter magic when we begin to focus on the "to whom" of an aria, soliloquy, or scene (yes, I'm yelling at my husband, but I'm really yelling at my mother). My experience writing is that keying to the "you," whether implicit or explicit, summons a specificity of voice I could never in a million years construct. Many many thanks. This is invaluable.
My novel is historical, telling the story, through two "close third" protagonists, of my great-great-great-great grandparents. When I think about who the ear is, honestly what comes to my mind are my 23 cousins. But I want the book to be read more widely than that! Am I restricting my readership by speaking to them in my mind?
I'm writing a historical novel starting with my great-great-great grandparents, so you've got me by one generation! I find myself staying in the "ear" of an audience that could be reading it at the time, so no references past 1835 Ardèche. And what a delightful challenge to try to think like my characters, and perhaps to give them some tad ahead of their time characteristics. For example, women who refuse to be illiterate, despite barely learning their letters. And finding ways to convey they are speaking Occitan rather than French, though they will switch in the next generation
But since I'm following genealogical research done by a French cousins, I think I am also aiming to please the "ear" of all my French cousins as well!
Now that you say the "ear" of your story is a contemporaneous audience I want to jump up and say "mine too!" And you make a strong point that when we write historical fiction the voice should naturally echo the times we are writing about. Appreciate your bringing this up! Your historical grands sound very interesting. Are you far along yet or starting out?
I'm starting out, but I have this spectacular volume of genealogical research from my first cousin, (and also from my great uncle before her--but pre-computer) and just by following what we actually know generation by generation, it will serves as a de facto outline. I'm just finishing the first chapter and about to show my sister - who serves as my muse and collaborator on various projects. I don't want to hijack Rebecca's thread but I would be curious to know more about your project and be happy to share more details on mine, so do lets follow each other and chat!
FASCINATING! So in a multi POV book, could you have more than one ear? This is kinda random but I just interviewed a researcher who studies vocal patterns of people with schizophrenia and one signal is someone starting stories midstream and dropping names without any context of who these people are.
I've gotten feedback from my first readers re: whether to write "mother" or "my mother" in my 3rd person POV memoir. I initially used the latter, which I think you're advocating, but was told to go with the former. Help!
I'm absolutely not advocating for either -- but it will probably read best if it fits with the overall tone you're using. If you start out with "I grew up in a small town in Georgia, and mother was a nurse" it's a little odd -- you're putting us at a distance with that first part, and in the second part you're speaking to us with much more intimacy. Of course we could always get to know her first as "my mother" and then when you transition to "mother" it's because we do know her now.
'If you've ever spoken to someone who gets it wrong, it's disconcerting. They might talk about their friends as if you know who they are. They’ll say, “Sarah told me…” and you're like, Who the hell is Sarah? ' Ah, I see you've met my wife, who does this constantly; it drives me batty and I find myself filling in the relationship to whomever she is talking to.
I just wanted to pop in to say that, although I am not a writer, I greatly enjoy your essays here and find that they help me, as a reader, understand what I do or don't like about a story.
Just what I needed. I'm struggling with a novel put in a drawer long enough for a huge world change (not the orange devil but a supreme court reversal) and I think it means I need to think about the story's ear differently. Thank you!
This is amazing and so helpful. IMO, your craft posts are the best I've ever read. You really get into the nitty gritty, practical stuff.
I always devour your posts on POV!
Where I find myself getting stuck is on what I see as a fine line between breaking the fourth wall and using rhetorical language. For example, in my story, the narrator is trapped in his own mind (physically unconscious) and thinking back over his life. He IS telling a story, but not to anyone in particular; I suppose he's telling it to himself, to pinpoint moments where he might have gone wrong, leading to his present predicament. In a few places, he'll say something like, "You'd think I would have found this alarming." He's not addressing a particular person, but a couple people in my workshop highlighted this as a breaking of the fourth wall. But is it really?
If my friend Betty says something to me like, "Shouldn't this farmers market have locally grown vegetables?" and I respond, "You would think," I'm not really saying, "You, Betty, would think that;" I'm saying, "Logically, anyone would think this."
Not a question about the topic but about those great photos - what's the source for them? I want more!
I just Googled! If you put your settings on black and white, that helps a lot...
Same here - I wondered where you found those photos!
This is gold, thank you!
Of course, the narcissistic tendency to presumptive references is also a perfect trait to endow a character with. "Karen always did that -- continuing a conversation we hadn't actually had. She was the kind of person who thought if it happened to her, or if she had a certain thought, you must somehow know about it. She would insist you knew, for example, who 'Sarah' was, even if she'd made one offhand reference to this woman months ago. You were supposed to memorize her life, although most of yours had to be presented to her anew every conversation, as if she was afflicted with friendship amnesia."
That's me, responding to a non-existent prompt, because I miss them and wish you'd bring them back.
Yes yes yes. Thank you. So clear. I coach actors and opera singers; it's utter magic when we begin to focus on the "to whom" of an aria, soliloquy, or scene (yes, I'm yelling at my husband, but I'm really yelling at my mother). My experience writing is that keying to the "you," whether implicit or explicit, summons a specificity of voice I could never in a million years construct. Many many thanks. This is invaluable.
My novel is historical, telling the story, through two "close third" protagonists, of my great-great-great-great grandparents. When I think about who the ear is, honestly what comes to my mind are my 23 cousins. But I want the book to be read more widely than that! Am I restricting my readership by speaking to them in my mind?
I'm writing a historical novel starting with my great-great-great grandparents, so you've got me by one generation! I find myself staying in the "ear" of an audience that could be reading it at the time, so no references past 1835 Ardèche. And what a delightful challenge to try to think like my characters, and perhaps to give them some tad ahead of their time characteristics. For example, women who refuse to be illiterate, despite barely learning their letters. And finding ways to convey they are speaking Occitan rather than French, though they will switch in the next generation
But since I'm following genealogical research done by a French cousins, I think I am also aiming to please the "ear" of all my French cousins as well!
Now that you say the "ear" of your story is a contemporaneous audience I want to jump up and say "mine too!" And you make a strong point that when we write historical fiction the voice should naturally echo the times we are writing about. Appreciate your bringing this up! Your historical grands sound very interesting. Are you far along yet or starting out?
I'm starting out, but I have this spectacular volume of genealogical research from my first cousin, (and also from my great uncle before her--but pre-computer) and just by following what we actually know generation by generation, it will serves as a de facto outline. I'm just finishing the first chapter and about to show my sister - who serves as my muse and collaborator on various projects. I don't want to hijack Rebecca's thread but I would be curious to know more about your project and be happy to share more details on mine, so do lets follow each other and chat!
Good suggestion. I just subscribed to yours. Now I have to find the chat function!
FASCINATING! So in a multi POV book, could you have more than one ear? This is kinda random but I just interviewed a researcher who studies vocal patterns of people with schizophrenia and one signal is someone starting stories midstream and dropping names without any context of who these people are.
This is a yummy summer treat. Such a great breakdown and summary.
I've gotten feedback from my first readers re: whether to write "mother" or "my mother" in my 3rd person POV memoir. I initially used the latter, which I think you're advocating, but was told to go with the former. Help!
I'm absolutely not advocating for either -- but it will probably read best if it fits with the overall tone you're using. If you start out with "I grew up in a small town in Georgia, and mother was a nurse" it's a little odd -- you're putting us at a distance with that first part, and in the second part you're speaking to us with much more intimacy. Of course we could always get to know her first as "my mother" and then when you transition to "mother" it's because we do know her now.